This piece came in Orissa Diary on 9th January 2012.
Manish Sisodia, a key member in Anna Hazare’s team was in Odisha recently to attend a three day programme on Lokpal issue and interacted with the youth. Speaking toPradeep Baisakh, Senior Editor, OrissaDiary.com he laments the irresponsiveness of politicians toward the sentiments of common citizenry of the country, who have been fighting for a strong anti-corruption law for last more than eight months; clears the air on the controversies surrounding his team members like Kiran Bedi and Prashant Bhushan and discusses various provisions of Jan Lokpal bill.
Orissa Diary: Why do we need a strong Lokpal in India?
Manish Sisodia: In name of anti corruption system, we have very weak laws in our country. Under Prevention of Corruption Act (PCA), there is no such mechanism to implement its provisions. So we need a mechanism to execute the PCA. The poor in the villages suffer from hunger and starve due to corruption. The ration that is released from the godown is siphoned off on the way. This is due to corruption.
Price rise is an issue. In 2G spectrum 1.76 lakh rupees have been bungled. Had it not happened we would give less tax, the price of petroleum would have been less. So corruption in a way is one of the responsible factors for the rise in prices of basic products.
So corruption is responsible for poverty and price rise.
Orissa Diary: Above $1400 billion of black (Indian) money is parked in foreign banks. Many of the politicians, possibly including ones from the ruling establishment, may be owning such money. Are you little over-optimistic? Do you think the political class is fool to give you an instrument which you will use to put them behind bars?
Manish Sisodia: I think the politicians I power are not interested for a strong Lokpal. It’s been one year to demand and demonstrate, but the Lokpal is yet to come. You are right. The politicians holding power at the centre will not like to create the institution that hit at their feet.
But, when there will be danger to their position and existence, they will be forced to pass a strong law. We have to create such environment where they will realise that if they do not bring a strong Lokpal, they will be voted out.
Orissa Diary: When the people will see a strong Lokpal? This is an imaginary question, but people are interest to know it.
Manish Sisodia: Difficult to say. But it seems there is enough pressure on the government. If it does not act with this much pressure, then we have to bring in more pressure on it
Now this movement is not limited to Lokpal only. It has gone beyond it. What we have learnt in last 8 months is that the common people are nothing in this country. The ‘Aam Admi’ in lakhs cannot make a law which one US or Europe based company can do. If they want the government can pass a law in a single day. We have to take our system to a stage where the people of this country should have the power to make law and the power to influence and make laws in our country by the foreign forces should be withdrawn.
Orissa Diary: Now your strategy has been changed from that of fasting to campaigning against Congress in different elections. Do you think the earlier strategy has failed?
Manish Sisodia: Strategies in a movement evolve. Initially we wrote letters, then pressure was created through discussions; and then fasting was undertaken. The government did not accept our demands, so we went for another fast. Still the government did not accept so we adopted the strategy of campaigning against the ruling party. It means you add new strategies as you go ahead with the movement.
Orissa Diary: You seem to be overwhelmed with the support of BJP and L K Advani. For your information, when Advani ji recently visited Odisha as part of his anti-corruption Rathyatra, he did not utter a word against the Naveen government which is neck dip in corruption like mining scam, coal scam, Dal scam etc. That’s because, Naveen Patnaik is a possible ally in the coming general election. Do not you think that opposition is just using your movement to fish in the dirty water?
Manish Sisodia: Opposition party cannot use us. The fact is that the people are disgusted with the current government. Due to the great mistakes of the congress party, the opposition is getting space. Otherwise, if the current government provides good governance, then how opposition will get any space?
None is pious. Anna therefore says that if one is graduate, other is post graduate and the third is doctorate in corruption. Many BJB ruled states are not brining Lokayktas except one i.e. Uttarakhand. States ruled by other parties are also not brining Lokayuktas despite our persuasion.
But strategically we have to decide who to pressurise and how to create mechanisms to check corruption. Now the ruling party in the centre is in a position to do something, therefore pressure should be on it.
Orissa Diary: What’s your answer to the recent allegations of manipulation by Kiran Bedi in her own organisation and the controversial remarks on Kashmir by Prashant Bhushan?
Manish Sisodia: What Prashant ji told on Kashmir is his own view. Team has nothing to do with it and we have repeatedly told that the team does not subscribe such view. Purposefully such issues are raised so that the attention from Lokpal is diverted. And the allegations which have been made against Kiran ji, it’s clear that the government machineries are misused. The government agencies selectively picked up files and misinterpreted them and leaked to media. This is also the government’s diversionary technique.
And all such allegations are baseless. First thing is that these are non issues purposefully to divert attention. If there is any strength in these allegations, please put us in jail. If we are corrupt and you are corrupt, put everyone in jail. But do not refrain from bringing the strong Lokpal.
To elaborate it further, when we say bring lower bureaucracy under Lokpal, they say what we have to say on Kashmir; when we say bring CBI under Lokpal, they say what is your view on reservation; when we say how Lokpal will be appointed, they say we are corrupt…so when we raise debate on various provisions of Lokpal, they raise irrelevant issues.
Orissa Diary: A Jan Sampark Yatra has been undertaken by your Odisha group. What impact it would create on people?
Manish Sisodia: It has a strong impact in terms of brining all people through out the state, who had campaigned coming out of their political boundaries, together. All those who had voluntarily led the movement in their areas came under one roof and ready to go with the nation’s campaign on a strong Lokpal. Our movement is decentralised one. We only declare a date for the movement and people who have trust on Anna take up call and start movement in their respective areas. As you know people have come in lakhs.
Orissa Diary: Fight against corruption is an ongoing process. Is team Anna attempting is to create a structure which will act as a panacea against corruption? Are you trying to create a super structure though one law and address all issues of corruption? In a democracy inter-institutional accountability is very important. In Jan lokpal bill, the accountability provisions are very complex. Aruna Roy suggested five laws to tackle corruption, of which you accepted some at a later stage.
Manish Sisodia: Different groups are giving different opinions, and we are not adamant on our opinion. If we are, we would have stuck to the initial version of Jan Lokpal bill. We have revised our bill thirteen times.
Operational aspects in dealing with corruption are what we have to discuss. In the current set up, in same case of corruption, if a clerk is involved complaint is to be made near one agency and for a senior bureaucrat, different agency will deal with and for an elected person it different. So a common person cannot get any benefit out of it. So some proposals have come from some CSOs which suggest multiple structures. There are operational difficulties involved with it. In maximum cases of corruption, you can see that senior bureaucracy, junior bureaucracy and politicians are involved in it.
In Jan Lokpal bill, a common person can file a complaint against Lokpal in the Supreme Court. This is a direct process of accountability.
Orissa Diary: CBI has been used in many occasions as a weapon by the ruling establishment to settle scores with the opposition political party or anyone who challenges it. Do you think your demand for brining it under Lokpal, which may take away from political control over CBI, will be accepted?
Manish Sisodia: Corruption is mostly done by the party when in power. Therefore the anti-corruption agency should never be under the control of the ruling party or coalition. “Choron ke Sardar ke haat me Thanedar ke gardan hona nehin chaiye!” Such an institution should be made accountable to a panel which is selected in a democratic and transparent process. Therefore we demand it to be brought under Lokpal. It should not be under a Minister or a IAS officer.
Orissa Diary: In the current arrangement the CVC oversees the functioning of the CBI as per the Supreme Court’s direction. Despite that it is not independent, why?
Manish Sisodia: CVC has supervisory power with the CVC which means nothing. The administrative control like transfers and postings etc are under the government. So CBI is more controlled by the government.
Orissa Diary: The mining scam in Odisha is of 3 lakh crores (CNN-IBN has quantified). Should such cases be handed over to the CBI?
Manish Sisodia: In such big scams there is every possibility that both the centre and the state collude. Various political parties get benefits from such scams. Therefore we demand that the CBI be made free from political control. The difference and antagonism among various political parties is only in name sake. When it comes to loot the public resources, all loot it tougher. So a CBI independent of the government is the answer.
Orissa Diary: What’s your position on suggestions like electoral reforms like State Funding of Elections? Will this address the evasive ways the political parties are collecting funds for the parties?
Manish Sisodia: Even though we proposed for electoral reforms, we have not deliberated much on it. We have political parties which have no internal democracy. All the political parties run under the direction of the party high command. To fight election, one has to work, not spend money, or employ goons to win election. In this country people have won election without spending huge money. They have won campaigning by cycles. Trust of people is primary requirement to win election which the leaders have lost. Therefore they are now depending on money and muscle power.
Pradeep Baisakh can be reached through e mail: 2006pradeep@gamil.com
